In a rare instance of too much transparency, an Ohio police department released the precise movements of a particular vehicle in response to a public records request, showing just how invasive license plate reading technology can be.
The government knows where you live and where you go pretty much all the time when you’re in a car. That includes your lifted pickup truck and your minivan covered top to bottom with words.
All yous conspiracy nuts out there, let’s advocate for better bike and passenger train infrastructure and walkable cities, to make it harder for governments to know where you are and track what you do, thanks.
red light and speed cameras are illegal in my state
I use an alternative Android ROM on my phone with a firewall
That said, I totality agree with your assessment. We need better pedestrian, cycling, and mass transit infrastructure. The problem is that pretty much nobody campaigns on that. Rs campaign on fiscal issues, Ds campaign on “culture” issues, and neither deliver on their promises anyway. I want more trains and more pedestrian/cycling infra, but neither party seems to care…
Triangulation using cellphone towers is not unheard of and they can subpoena it.
Then again, a national state actor going against a private entity is rare and the private entity will often lose.
Same thing with my home cameras, I use unifi because it’s easy and the data is stored locally. That way the police can’t subpoena Amazon or any of the big companies for their cloud data.
I’m being very facetious. Privacy is a losing battle. You fuckup once, you negate a lot of hard work.
Yeah, I forgot about triangulation. But I highly doubt my government is routinely gathering triangulation data on citizens, and especially not generally law abiding citizens like me. I suppose I could use a faraday cage to guarantee no tracking, but that’s well in the “tin foil hat” category of paranoia.
I use GrapheneOS and disable location most of the time, and sensor access is disabled for most apps. My firewall only allows a handful of apps to access mobile data, and I disable mobile data entirely fairly frequently. I only use Google Play for a handful of services, and they’re in a separate profile so they get fully closed when I’m done with them.
The government could subpoena information about me, but I doubt they routinely collect the sort if information that my phone exposes.
If you where targeted by a state actor there is not much you could do honestly. They have more resources, more knowledge and more time then any one person. The truth is almost everybody is not going to be targeted.
Exactly. I’m not being targeted by a state level actor, I don’t have any warrants or anything, and I’m pretty boring overall.
There are two main strategies to staying hidden:
don’t be seen
blend in
I do the first for the big threats (social media and other big tech), and the second for everything else. If the government wanted to find me, they could, my goal isn’t to hide, but to give them no reason to look for me.
red light and speed cameras are illegal in my state
This doesn’t ban license plate reader cameras. My state also bans red light and speed cameras, but automatic license plate readers are 100% legal. I have seen the ALPL systems firsthand, and know they’re in use. You wouldn’t even notice them, because they’re mounted on traffic lights and power lines. It’s not like red light cameras, where they have a blatantly obvious giant camera box.
My local municipality 100% uses ALPLs, and has referenced them in a number of arrests recently. They’re mostly used for Amber Alert situations, where police already have a description of what to look for. In these cases, the ALPL will basically allow them to track the car in real time, without even needing to follow the car. Because they simply get updates every time the car passes an intersection, so they can set up a stop ahead of where the person is traveling.
It’s very possible the police have scanned my license plate, and imo that’s totally fine, provided my car is in public and one of the above apply.
From those:
I have no warrants, so this doesn’t apply
Could happen to anyone, but chances are very low
I’m obviously not a commercial vehicle
Possible, but unlikely. I drive old, crappy cars, so my car is unlikely to be similar to a stolen car.
Again, possible, but I don’t commit crimes worth tracking via license plate. Any crimes I do commit would likely fall under traffic violations.
I try very hard to not give police reasonable, articulable suspicion. If stopped, I give short answers and have yet to have a problem.
Police are lazy, so they’re unlikely to use ALPR data unless they have a good reason. I intend to never give them that good reason.
I go after the low-hanging fruit so as to not arouse suspicion and protect me if there is suspicion. Going any further (e.g. trying to fool ALPR systems) goes against that. If I’m on public roads, I assume my car can be tracked, so I drive carefully and keep my car properly maintained. I also store any potential contraband out of view so as to not raise suspicion if I am stopped.
It would be nice to go even further, but I’m not going to break the law to try to hide, I’m going to blend in instead.
red light and speed cameras are illegal in my state
License plate readers are not covered by those two bans. Trust me, they are everywhere in the states, and the technology/software to set them up is so easy, that a private citizen who was bored was able to build one. The various governments have much nicer setups.
Yes, those are legal, but pretty much limited to law enforcement and paid parking lots. Since police can’t issue citations based on video evidence alone, they’re not nearly as common here as elsewhere. Private businesses could probably grab that from security cameras (e.g. gas stations), but that should, in most cases, require a subpoena.
I rarely go places where license plate readers are common, so those data points are pretty few and far between. If I was running from the law, I’d certainly act differently, but the police have no reason to request a subpoena, so I’m unlikely to be tracked.
It is possible though, and I really don’t like that. But it’s just not likely.
I have Gapps in a separate profile, which I almost never use. So 99% of the time, it’s not running.
And yeah, the government could find me if they had a warrant. I’m not running from the police, I’m trying to give them no reason to need to look for me. I’m more concerned about big tech tracking me and giving the government a reason to watch me, so that’s what I’m looking to avoid.
If I wanted to hide from governments, I would take a very different strategy.
Yes. The police could find me if they had a warrant, but they don’t and I’m not going to give them a reason to get one. My state doesn’t allow automatic use of license plate scanning equipment without reasonable suspicion, and police have to submit a report if they use it.
So I’m not worried about it. I’m not running from the police and acting like I am could give them reasonable suspicion, and that’s counter-productive.
They know where I am in my 1986 Fiero? In an area where the nearest traffic camera is at least 50 kms away? Where the police don’t show even if you call them?
Would I ride a train, sure but they are all freight haulers now and would you believe it even easier to track?
And my bicycle? its great, love it. but I am not able to make my 250km commute on it and although I have used it in the winter -50c is not conducive to cycling.
There is a record of you being the owner of a 1986 Fiero. Nobody needs to know the make, colour and serial number of your bike unless you register it in a system to ensure it’s not stolen.
US and Canadian Intercity trains have upped security since 9/11 like everything so there is more tracking than before. You can still buy tickets with cash at least. Denser cities make it easier to blend in the crowds.
And yeah my last car had no always connected tech bullshit, and if you live in a remote area then of course, mass-transit isn’t for you. Rural folks do also advocate for better city planning because it helps keep suburbanites out. Extreme cold and heat (beyond +/- 40 deg C) makes it hard but most winters and summers it can work
There is also a record of where I live, my height, eye colour and a whole list of things. People will still be able to find me on my bike easier then in my car since I can’t be that far from home on it.
You assume we all live in cities, we don’t. I like how my town is set up and is walking and bike friendly, but still most drive. This post was about privacy but you got on the ol’ soapbox about mass transit. Do you really think getting on a train/bus/tram you are not being/can not be tracked?
Leave your city, spread out and enjoy a bit of nature.
You can be tracked with facial recognition, etc. but not in the same way or with the ease of a car as demonstrated in the article so I think that my point is relevant to the article. Sure some states ban or don’t have traffic cameras, but in Ohio specifically, we see that a better intercity transit system could be better for privacy.
I already mentioned that sure, mass transit doesn’t work as well in rural and remote areas. Clarifying my point on that: planning cities for more density, more walkability and car free travel is good for country people outside of those cities, because it keeps the suburbs from sprawling out into the countryside. These exurbs take up what could have been useful farmland with people who are just LARPing country life and spend 4 hours every day travelling to and from their job that was in the city anyway.
The government knows where you live and where you go pretty much all the time when you’re in a car. That includes your lifted pickup truck and your minivan covered top to bottom with words.
All yous conspiracy nuts out there, let’s advocate for better bike and passenger train infrastructure and walkable cities, to make it harder for governments to know where you are and track what you do, thanks.
Cameras already exist and facial recognition is getting better all the time. It won’t matter soon enough whether you’re in a car or on foot.
I highly doubt the government knows where I go:
That said, I totality agree with your assessment. We need better pedestrian, cycling, and mass transit infrastructure. The problem is that pretty much nobody campaigns on that. Rs campaign on fiscal issues, Ds campaign on “culture” issues, and neither deliver on their promises anyway. I want more trains and more pedestrian/cycling infra, but neither party seems to care…
But do you sanitize and vet your carrier data?
Triangulation using cellphone towers is not unheard of and they can subpoena it.
Then again, a national state actor going against a private entity is rare and the private entity will often lose.
Same thing with my home cameras, I use unifi because it’s easy and the data is stored locally. That way the police can’t subpoena Amazon or any of the big companies for their cloud data.
I’m being very facetious. Privacy is a losing battle. You fuckup once, you negate a lot of hard work.
-Sent on my stock Google Pixel lmfao
Yeah, I forgot about triangulation. But I highly doubt my government is routinely gathering triangulation data on citizens, and especially not generally law abiding citizens like me. I suppose I could use a faraday cage to guarantee no tracking, but that’s well in the “tin foil hat” category of paranoia.
I use GrapheneOS and disable location most of the time, and sensor access is disabled for most apps. My firewall only allows a handful of apps to access mobile data, and I disable mobile data entirely fairly frequently. I only use Google Play for a handful of services, and they’re in a separate profile so they get fully closed when I’m done with them.
The government could subpoena information about me, but I doubt they routinely collect the sort if information that my phone exposes.
If you where targeted by a state actor there is not much you could do honestly. They have more resources, more knowledge and more time then any one person. The truth is almost everybody is not going to be targeted.
Exactly. I’m not being targeted by a state level actor, I don’t have any warrants or anything, and I’m pretty boring overall.
There are two main strategies to staying hidden:
I do the first for the big threats (social media and other big tech), and the second for everything else. If the government wanted to find me, they could, my goal isn’t to hide, but to give them no reason to look for me.
This doesn’t ban license plate reader cameras. My state also bans red light and speed cameras, but automatic license plate readers are 100% legal. I have seen the ALPL systems firsthand, and know they’re in use. You wouldn’t even notice them, because they’re mounted on traffic lights and power lines. It’s not like red light cameras, where they have a blatantly obvious giant camera box.
My local municipality 100% uses ALPLs, and has referenced them in a number of arrests recently. They’re mostly used for Amber Alert situations, where police already have a description of what to look for. In these cases, the ALPL will basically allow them to track the car in real time, without even needing to follow the car. Because they simply get updates every time the car passes an intersection, so they can set up a stop ahead of where the person is traveling.
Here’s the state code (Utah) on license plate readers:
It’s very possible the police have scanned my license plate, and imo that’s totally fine, provided my car is in public and one of the above apply.
From those:
I go after the low-hanging fruit so as to not arouse suspicion and protect me if there is suspicion. Going any further (e.g. trying to fool ALPR systems) goes against that. If I’m on public roads, I assume my car can be tracked, so I drive carefully and keep my car properly maintained. I also store any potential contraband out of view so as to not raise suspicion if I am stopped.
It would be nice to go even further, but I’m not going to break the law to try to hide, I’m going to blend in instead.
License plate readers are not covered by those two bans. Trust me, they are everywhere in the states, and the technology/software to set them up is so easy, that a private citizen who was bored was able to build one. The various governments have much nicer setups.
Yes, those are legal, but pretty much limited to law enforcement and paid parking lots. Since police can’t issue citations based on video evidence alone, they’re not nearly as common here as elsewhere. Private businesses could probably grab that from security cameras (e.g. gas stations), but that should, in most cases, require a subpoena.
I rarely go places where license plate readers are common, so those data points are pretty few and far between. If I was running from the law, I’d certainly act differently, but the police have no reason to request a subpoena, so I’m unlikely to be tracked.
It is possible though, and I really don’t like that. But it’s just not likely.
We’re not talking tickets we are talking tracking you…
Do you have evidence of how prevalent these are in his state?
Still have triangulation from cell towers and probably others still even with the firewall. Do you have Gapps installed?
I have Gapps in a separate profile, which I almost never use. So 99% of the time, it’s not running.
And yeah, the government could find me if they had a warrant. I’m not running from the police, I’m trying to give them no reason to need to look for me. I’m more concerned about big tech tracking me and giving the government a reason to watch me, so that’s what I’m looking to avoid.
If I wanted to hide from governments, I would take a very different strategy.
Does it run on gas and have plates?
Yes. The police could find me if they had a warrant, but they don’t and I’m not going to give them a reason to get one. My state doesn’t allow automatic use of license plate scanning equipment without reasonable suspicion, and police have to submit a report if they use it.
So I’m not worried about it. I’m not running from the police and acting like I am could give them reasonable suspicion, and that’s counter-productive.
Eh. Makes more sense to make this kind of surveillance illegal.
You’re right. I was hoping conspiracy nuts wouldn’t be looking for the obvious solution.
Do you carry a phone?
I do. It runs GrapheneOS, though.
EDIT: Yes I know about triangulation via cell signal. If the cops start looking for me I can leave it at home.
They know where I am in my 1986 Fiero? In an area where the nearest traffic camera is at least 50 kms away? Where the police don’t show even if you call them?
Would I ride a train, sure but they are all freight haulers now and would you believe it even easier to track?
And my bicycle? its great, love it. but I am not able to make my 250km commute on it and although I have used it in the winter -50c is not conducive to cycling.
There is a record of you being the owner of a 1986 Fiero. Nobody needs to know the make, colour and serial number of your bike unless you register it in a system to ensure it’s not stolen.
US and Canadian Intercity trains have upped security since 9/11 like everything so there is more tracking than before. You can still buy tickets with cash at least. Denser cities make it easier to blend in the crowds.
And yeah my last car had no always connected tech bullshit, and if you live in a remote area then of course, mass-transit isn’t for you. Rural folks do also advocate for better city planning because it helps keep suburbanites out. Extreme cold and heat (beyond +/- 40 deg C) makes it hard but most winters and summers it can work
There is also a record of where I live, my height, eye colour and a whole list of things. People will still be able to find me on my bike easier then in my car since I can’t be that far from home on it.
You assume we all live in cities, we don’t. I like how my town is set up and is walking and bike friendly, but still most drive. This post was about privacy but you got on the ol’ soapbox about mass transit. Do you really think getting on a train/bus/tram you are not being/can not be tracked?
Leave your city, spread out and enjoy a bit of nature.
You can be tracked with facial recognition, etc. but not in the same way or with the ease of a car as demonstrated in the article so I think that my point is relevant to the article. Sure some states ban or don’t have traffic cameras, but in Ohio specifically, we see that a better intercity transit system could be better for privacy.
I already mentioned that sure, mass transit doesn’t work as well in rural and remote areas. Clarifying my point on that: planning cities for more density, more walkability and car free travel is good for country people outside of those cities, because it keeps the suburbs from sprawling out into the countryside. These exurbs take up what could have been useful farmland with people who are just LARPing country life and spend 4 hours every day travelling to and from their job that was in the city anyway.
Facial recognition needs a camera. Common but not everywhere.
The issue is police not respecting privacy at all, this does not change when on a bus.
Try robbing a bank and get away in ur fiero and yeah the cops will find you the same day.
Yes, same with a bus, train, bicycle or on foot. Also not really relivent to privacy.