Body positivity is such a strange concept to me. There’s efforts to reclaim words while simultaneously calling them bad if used as an insult. Ideally, people wouldn’t be offended by someone describing their body with common descriptors, but socially there is so much value attributed to certain body types that it’s almost impossible to avoid having an emotional response of some kind to various descriptors.
For example, It’s not bad to be fat, but calling someone “fat” is almost universally considered a bad thing. The same definitely seems to go for the idea of being “short.”
I’m asking this question because I can’t put my finger on why but something seems to be different about the use of the term “short” from the use of the term “fat.” I think that part of it is how, to me at least, the term “fat” is so generic and hard to nail down to a discrete definition, implying that the word really doesn’t have a clear connection to reality. On the other hand, height is a single-dimensional number. You either are above a certain threshold, or you aren’t.
I recently learned that May 6th to May 10th is “short king week” because it’s 5’6" to 5’10" which then prompted me to search for the origins of “short king” and apparently the person most-credited with popularizing the term is Jaboukie Young-White who claims the term was meant to include all men under 6 feet tall. The average adult male height is 5’9" leaving men considered roughly average to be called “short” which is still considered an insult by many.
I dunno. As a term that was intended to champion body positivity compared with how the term is actually used, what do you think of “short king?”
I’m 5’6" and find the term childish and insulting. It’s not the short part, it’s the king part. I am not a king, I’m a regular guy working a regular job.
“Body positivity” is garbage. People should be honest and support healthy lifestyles. Twisting reality to make someone comfortable is detrimental to their physical and mental health.
I don’t understand the reasoning but, across the board, it seems today’s culture is very quick to accept literal delusions in place of reality for the sake of feelings and “mental well being”.
I think that you have internalized a version of body positivity that lies on the most extreme end of what is meant by that phrase. Body positivity - be comfortable with who you are and do not put down on others due to their body.
The odds are that I am significantly fatter than you. The odds also favor that I am significantly stronger than you, even if you lift weights. I can also probably walk all day much farther than you can.
Would it be healthier if I lose body fat? Absolutely. Have I tried for 20 years to do that? Yes. I am not ignorant regarding nutrition. I am not lazy. I am not overall lacking willpower. I am fat but otherwise healthy.
Body positively means that my doctor treats my body fat as what it is - one aspect of my overall health. He does not assume that every problem I have is because I am fat, even though changing that would improve some aspects of my health.
Body positively also means that I am not going to hide when I go to the beach. I am going to go shirtless and enjoy myself. If you do not find me sexually attractive, that is fine. If you are going to shame or mock me for my body fat, then you are an asshole. If I catch wind of you mocking me, I will quietly estimate how many times your bodyweight I will deadlift on Monday. If you choose to mock the scars that cover parts of my body from extreme, life-saving surgery, I may feel the need to firmly educate you on exactly what sort of asshole you are.
Body positively often conjures the image of a morbidly obese girl on OnlyFans who lets people pay to watch her binge and intentionally get fatter while she says being purposefully inactive is just as healthy as hitting the gym. The real versions of that person are extremely rare, but their radicalism, vociferous nature, and platform make their voices much louder in comparison. Their argument is also easy to find flaw with and mock, so they get used as if they are a typical example of body positivity.
You are right in that the woman I describe above needs help and is not behaving in a safe or healthy way. I also understand why you might think that is the norm. She is not, though, and I would encourage you to look deeper at the meaning of the “movement.”
The “you” above is generic and based on broad assumptions. You, the reader, might be stronger than me and have way more endurance than me. You also might be fatter than I am. The odds are very good that you are also not an asshole. My point was to call out variances from the norm as convenient examples, of which I have plenty in both directions.
If you’re a hundred pounds overweight, you should not be comfortable with who you are. People who support or celebrate morbid obesity are bad people.
It does not appear that you are really listening to others to do much as commenting pithy things, and I am not sure if you have some specific reason for this or if you are just picking fights.
But let’s still break this down. Literally no one here is talking about celebrating morbid obesity. That is pretty much a straw man at this point.
Morbidly obese people should be able to look in the mirror and think to themselves, “I look good today!” They should be allowed to go out without worry that someone will make fun of them. They should be able to go to the doctor and be heard instead of the doctor assuming every health problem is only caused by obesity.
If you disagree with the above statements, please be very clear as to why. Everybody deserves quality medical care from their physician. Everybody deserves to not hate themselves. Everybody deserves to not be kicked for their appearance.
No one is saying, “Woo-hoo! Try to be so fat it harms your health!” I would suggest you read up on the science of weight loss and why so many little are obese these days. There is not universal consensus, but there is general agreement that the deck is highly stacked against many people, and extra body fat is not a simple condition to deal with in many circumstances.
People should try to lead the healthiest lifestyle they are reasonably able. No one is stating otherwise.
Your other comment I can’t respond to for whatever the Lemmy reason lol, I very much like your take on these matters, also slightly adjacent, what is your dead?
Thank you. I don’t have notes handy, but my deadlift was around 360 lbs. for 8-12 when I was last training it directly. A few health-related issues have sidelined my lifting for a couple months (post-cancer life sucks sometimes), but I am cleared to get back into the gym next week!
My legs are where I really shine, with my calculated one rep max for the sled press up in the mid 800s and working sets in the 600s. That is my lift where people stop and look twice.
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Maybe no one “here” is celebrating it but I see it in pop culture a lot. I agree, no one should be making fun of people. I never suggested otherwise.
Our culture accepts that being 50+ pounds overweight is perfectly fine. This should not be normal or okay. Everyone should feel personal responsibility to live a healthy lifestyle but our public acceptance of being obese has shifted the scale, so to speak, of what is normal.
No one is talking about what a normal healthy weight is because that would impact revenue for food producers. No one talks about what a healthy lifestyle is because that would impact revenue of the entertainment industry. We live in a sick world that promotes laziness and addiction and being overweight. We care more about watching Netflix than we do about playing outside.
Again, I don’t know where people got the impression that I’m supporting making fun of people being fat. I’m saying that we as a culture should not accept that most of us are fat. Body positivity is detrimental to a person’s physical and mental well being - that’s not to say they should be “shamed” or “made fun of”. People should be aware of their flaws and supported to achieve personal goals. Our culture should shift away from the couch and DoorDash and towards the park and healthy food prep.
Yeah, shits me to tears that people think it’s OK,
I lost 35kgs through diet exercise etc and I felt absolutely amazing at the 30kg loss mark.
Didn’t think I felt bad at 125kg at 6ft tall when I hit 95 I felt amazing. Knees joints life everything easy.
Getting down to 90 on strict diet was hard and life just wasn’t fun anymore. Sure 6pack was cool and all but just no fun. I’m not blessed with those skinny genetics.
Anyone who’s fat and not been skinny in their adult life shouldn’t think they’re healthy and happy because everything is better when you’re actually at a healthy weight.
I agree that we should strive for people to be healthy. But there’s a lot of evidence to suggest that shame not only is ineffective but can actually have the opposite effect.
Besides, I think you’re being pretty reductive. Health includes both physical and mental, we should take steps to improve both of these. And I get the sense that you specifically take issue with body positivity specifically around fat people, as I assume you don’t think being short or tall is unhealthy. In which case, you’re ignoring the economics of it (at least in America, there are a ton of government subsidies for corn, incentivizing businesses to load up our food with corn syrup).
The issue is complex and so would any solutions. At least in America, we need to deincentivize the production of unhealthy food, better access to healthcare, and cultural shifts as well. And I’m sure there’s a whole lot I’m missing.
If you’re ashamed for being overweight, that’s something that should motivate you to lose the weight. Embracing being fat and blaming others is not healthy, it’s delusional.
There’s also a ton of government subsidizes for other fruits and vegetables. Don’t blame the government for your poor eating habits. Learn to prepare real food. It’s healthier, cheaper, and more abundant. You don’t need to deincentivize producing unhealthy food, you just need to choose not to eat it.
This culture of supporting people who are overweight is making us all lose sight of what a healthy lifestyle looks like. As generations spend less time working physically and more time sitting, our diets should be moving towards far less calories. Instead, we’re being made into nothing more than consumers who click a button to have bad food delivered to us while we sit on the couch.
The only complex issue is how we got here. It’s not complex to make healthier choices. I’d argue it’s easier than what we’re doing now. To quote Michael Pollan, “eat food, not too much, mostly plants”.
If you’re ashamed for being overweight, that’s something that should motivate you to lose the weight.
You would think so, but you’d be wrong. As I said before, shaming not only doesn’t work but has the opposite effect.
As James Corden said:
If making fun of fat people made them lose weight, there’d be no fat kids in schools.
If you’re sincere in your desire to make people healthier, then shame is not the way.
If you’re only interested in a feeling of superiority, then carry on I guess.
Except that I never suggested people should be shamed by others or made fun of. I said if a person felt ashamed of themselves, that should motivate them.
Do I need to repeat myself for a 3rd time? Do you not realize that “ashamed” is the adjective form of “shame”?
Wow. You’re really stuck on not engaging in this conversation. You can lie to yourself all you want and pretend you’re somehow more virtuous than everyone else. I’m not taking the bait.
I’m frankly not even clear what the conversation is that you’re trying to have. You claim, “I’m not saying we should shame people” and then go on to once again declare that “if people feel ashamed they’ll lose weight”. So which is it, is shame helpful as a weightloss tool or not? Spoiler alert: it’s not.
To me it honestly seems like you accidentally triple downed on an objectively bad position and are trying to buzzword your way out of it with accusations of virtue signaling and trolling.
Just take the L and move on dude.
Let me preface what I want to say with the fact that I have previously lost half of my bodyweight largely because of a lack of body positivity in my head, and it’s still lacking.
You seem to be of the mind that people who have “unhealthy habits” should be shamed into living a healthier life. Where does that end? Should only people who physically appear to be unhealthy be shamed? Should people who have actual unhealthy bodies be shamed? Should people who have invisible unhealthy habits like hidden bulimia be shamed? Should people who have unhealthy mental conditions that are only diagnosable by experts be shamed?
I’m not being sarcastic or rhetorical, I’m genuinely curious where the line should be drawn. Some people are physically incapable of losing weight. Some people are perfectly healthy despite appearing overweight, yet they are treated like less valuable people because they don’t conform to beauty standards. Some people are notably ill despite fitting conventional beauty standards.
Body positivity is about eliminating social standards of beauty that ignore health, not about making unhealthy people think they’re better off being unhealthy. Furthermore, health is absolutely a luxury for many people. When survival is expensive, surviving with the time and money to take care of your body can be unattainable
You seem to be of the mind that people who have “unhealthy habits” should be shamed into living a healthier life.
I never said or suggested that and resent you putting those words into my mouth. No one should make fun of someone’s weight. No one should shame someone because of their weight. You’re making up a lot of ideas that I never presented. I’m not spending any more time dissecting everything you claim I said and defending myself. I think I was pretty clear about how our culture supports and celebrates being fat and I don’t think that’s beneficial for people’s mental or physical health.
If you think the culture celebrates being unhealthy then you should know the only part of the culture that does that is the corporations that benefit off of it. The rest of us are trying to eliminate the unconscious bias people have against people who are “fat.”
If you see someone who you think is unhealthy because they “fat,” think again.
I am not observing the same reality you’re describing. I am seeing a culture of people who celebrate themselves and others who are severely obese, as if that’s a good thing. I have witnessed first hand that people are trying to gain weight because they believe it’s attractive and empowering. I have witnessed discussion that celebrates laziness and consumerism as goals to be rewarded over hard work and physical and mental well being.
I agree that corporate propaganda is a portion of this culture and I’m saying that we all need to recognize that we’ve been brain washed. More so, the propaganda is coming from people who already feel bad about themselves and are forcing others to accept them and their disinterest in being healthy.
“I’m fat and don’t care to lose weight, you should celebrate me and you should be like me too.” Apparently, anyone who chimes back suggesting they go to a doctor and get a health check is “shaming” them. You have to support them, you have to say “you do you, live your best life”, etc otherwise you’re disparaging them. It’s not about you giving a shit about that person, it’s about you virtue signaling so no one can judge you.
Body positivity" is garbage. People should be honest and support healthy lifestyles
Feels like you are falling in to the same critism trap that catches “Pride” events, lots of people say that they can be proud of lots of things, not nessecarily an indentity or sexuality.
But pride is more about not feeling shame for things you can’t control. Body positivity is about way more than overweight people, but being happy of who you are regardless of any stigma.
It’s not my place to say people should like “short kings”, I truly couldnt care less about individuals liking or disliking a given term. I just feel your reasoning would be better built upon infantalizing without attacking people that are fidng zen outside of unfair cultural stigma.
Do you think short people are living an unhealthy lifestyle?
They are if they try to use delusion to make themselves feel better.
Fucking amen
I recall a tweet from a ways back-
sometimes you have to be a bit mentally ill to get mentally well so if thinking naruto would be proud of you for brushing your teeth is what gets you to brush your teeth well grab that toothbrush dattebayo
If calling yourself a short king lets you kick your insecurities ass well then here’s your crown my dude 👑
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I’m a man, I’m 5’5" and I’m far beyond caring about my height. It bothered me in high school but I found out shortly after it really doesn’t matter that much if you carry yourself confidently.
That said, I’ve seen a number of other cis men find confidence in themselves by using short king self referentially and hearing people they want to date celebrate “short kings”, so it seems to be a useful term. I’ve also seen a number of trans men find it to be a confidence boosting term, combating the dysmorphia of their perceived height deficiency.
I’ll revel in such things with my friends for laughs, but, ultimately, it doesn’t do much for me, but I like seeing what it’s done for others.
It bothered me in high school but I found out shortly after it really doesn’t matter that much if you carry yourself confidently.
Which is accurate and admirable, but for those still in high school feeling bothered, wouldn’t the population of the term help them get to your head space faster? Terms of encouragement are a lot more valuable to the vulnerable than the secured.
What would help them build confidence faster is having something to be confident about. It’s hard to build confidence when you have nothing to be proud of. Complimenting actions and choices will help them. What does “short king” help with that simply “king” doesn’t? It sorta feels like you’re either saying “dude your shortness is so impressive that I’m jealous” which doesn’t make sense because that’s kind of a strange thing to be proud of, or “you’re so awesome in spite of your shortness” which is like a backhanded compliment by implying that their height is detracting from the rest of their qualities, or at the very least is calling attention to an attribute they’re self-conscious about.
It sorta feels like you’re either saying “dude your shortness is so impressive that I’m jealous” which doesn’t make sense because that’s kind of a strange thing to be proud of
It’s not something to be proud or ashamed of, it’s just a physical trait that says nothing about a persoms charcter. But tons of people feel less than or are mocked for these sorts of intrinsic traits. Consider queer people, “Pride” events aren’t about being proud of a sexuality/identity. It’s refusing to be shamed in the face of cultural taboos and social stigma, it’s about self love and acceptance than showing off something others should be jealous of.
I think that “championing body positivity” for any class of adult humans is undignified. I think that doing a special extra thing for people in order to reverse the polarity of a judgment about that aspect of them is cruelly mocking them for that aspect of them.
Perhaps there’s something about that short guy that’s actually awesome, and doesn’t require childish lies and role-playing to communicate.
If someone called me “small dick king” I would hate them forever, despite whatever positive intentions they might have had when they said it. Do not make my weakness the key point of my persona, even if you include that awkward attempt at “positivifying” it. Just call me “Intensely Human, master wordsmith” or something that’s actually positive. Don’t treat me like I’m a five year old, using keywords to remap my negative qualities into positive ones.
The whole idea of using a term, that’s special to short men, to “champion” (verbing nouns is horrible) body positivity in short men, makes me feel nauseous.
If we want to respect short men, let’s do so in action, not in word choice.
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Your comment made me re-think this a bit, because I happen to know that the origin of “dad-bod” wasn’t patronizing but a word used by some straight women who find this body type attractive in men. I wonder if “short king” may have initially been used by people who were attracted to the attribute in men and wanted a nice sounding way to describe it. I’m totally with you when these phrases are used like you described, but I wonder how many people using these terms are genuinely attracted to the attributes they’re pointing out.
It was used by magazines that thought a dad body was an actor of his roid cycle.
by magazines that thought a dad body was an actor of his roid cycle
What does that mean? “an actor of his roid cycle”?
Typically action star actors like Chris Hemsworth roid to get their body ready for a role and then after the movie is shot they cycle off and are a fatter and deflated but still muscular. People then see that body and think its a dad bod. A true dad bod is someone who does not have time to work out and therefore does not have massive shoulders and arms.
off* his roid cycle
pseudo feel-good tokenism bullshit
Brilliantly put. It’s downright insulting nonsense.
I’m with you except that I aspire to a dad bod. It’s probably not in the cards, but I’m trying lol
My city’s most common tagging these days might be “dadbob”. I see it everywhere.
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Haha, right? I could see it as a nickname with an in-group of buddies, especially for the short guy who is a social beast (I’ve worked for a couple).
As for under 6’…IIRC, 6’ and taller is like 14% of men? (Been a while since I read the stats).
Edit: 80-90% of adult American males are under 6’. The average height is 5’ 9’.
I’ve always been one of the smallest around… Never gave a shit after about 2nd grade - once you accept who/what you are, what other people do/say/think just doesn’t matter. This is “Growing Up 101” stuff.
I’m on the tall side of average (tall to some, average to others, short to few), and to me it’s always sounded like it’s mocking short guys, and if I were short I don’t think I’d want to be called that.
if you highlight a feature as “now its positive”, what you’re actually saying “normally it’s negative”
I m 164cm and you have to admit that yup it is “negative” (well it s not really it s just that being taller is better) . I like the term short king I think. I m not an english native speaker so no one call me that .that s may be why it don’t bother me.
It’s silly. And 5’10" isn’t short for a guy, and I say that as a tall lady. I don’t think most guys like feeling short, that’s problematic in itself but yeah, as you say, I would feel “short king” a backhanded compliment.
In general I think worrying about things people didn’t choose and can’t change is the worst. I feel slightly different about worrying about weight, but that’s my own baggage.
King / queen is insta cringe
I’m a relatively short guy at 5’6". My take on this is firstly that I dislike being called “king” because it sounds patronizing, especially by someone who knows nothing about me (that just feels insincere). Secondly, I’m comfortable, even happy, with my height. There have been many times I’ve been glad that I wasn’t taller. It’s kinda funny watching taller folks hitting their heads on things and complaining about cars being too small.
With my shortness being accepted by myself, someone else randomly pointing it out by explicitly calling me a “short king” in an effort to promote body positivity makes me think that in order for them to be recognizing shortness as a potentially negative trait means they likely thought of it as a negative in the past and are now patting themselves on the backs for being “enlightened” and subtly shaming others who still haven’t “evolved” to their level. It feels like less of a compliment and more of a circle jerk.
Also, I don’t feel like shortness needs any championing. Going back to the topic of obesity in the discorse of body positivity, I think it’s a great idea to treat people as people regardless of weight. But I think the implied premise stated by OP is flawed in this regard. I do think being happy with being overweight is different than being happy about being short. There are no apparent benefits to being overweight, since it generally increases risk factors in all kinds of medical issues. With this in mind, body positivity regarding weight should focus on encouraging others to lose weight without shaming them. The same is not true of being short. Besides the impossibility of people making themselves taller even if they wanted to, there’s no negative to a person’s well-being or quality of life because of it.
I can’t remember any time in my life that I’ve ever been called short as an insult either. This post just seems to be attempting to fix a non-issue. In summary, I would rather no one speak the words “short king” at all. Just go with “you’re such a badass” if you wanna give a compliment.
There have been many times I’ve been glad that I wasn’t taller. It’s kinda funny watching taller folks hitting their heads on things and complaining about cars being too small.
6’3" guy here. Every time someone says “wow you’re tall” I say that it’s not that great. 6’ is plenty to reach high shelves and stuff like that I think, but I struggle with leg room in public transport. I think that’s more annoying than needing a ladder once in a while. Also I often feel my hair touching the roof in smaller cars.
I’m a 5’7” guy and I absolutely support this kind of monarchism. God save the king.
5"10 isn’t short anyway. I think it’s average? “Short king” is trolling 100% of the time. I won’t call it gaslighting (a term I do apply to “big dick energy”) because it doesn’t seek that level of psychological invasiveness. But it’s not intended as a compliment. It’s trolling. Don’t feed the trolls.
I dont have a problem with the phrase but I don’t think ive ever heard it unironically or outisde of joking situatuons. Which is right about where the state of body positivity for men ends up.
Pro tip. Never tell people that even if someone is an asshole calling them small dicked is body shaming, unless you want all those people to instantly assume you’re telling on yourself and then body shame you for that.
Personally I do not let internet trends affect my behavior out in the real world. Why is that? Because if I use the term “short king” anywhere in the real world, 99% of people won’t know what I’m talking about. Until you hear a real person say it (that means not on lemmy, not on twitter, not on dating apps, etc. or people you meet through these platforms) you can assume that there is no real impact to be had there. I think we give way too much credit to the internet for affecting real life trends. Most people don’t care about these cute terminologies people come up with, and neither should you. The term was made to get someone attention, not to make short people feel better.
